The Path to Zero

December 18, 2024

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by Raakhee Mirchandani (Wall Street Journal/BookTV/C-Span) Author and Propane Education and Research Council CEO Tucker Perkins joined a panel discussion on climate change and reducing carbon emissions. The Wall Street Journal hosted this event.

People in this video

Bobby Cherian Senior Vice President Hyliion

Jennifer Holmgren Chief Executive Officer Lanzatech

Raakhee Mirchandani Author

Tucker Perkins Author

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Excerpts from transcript: Speakers were not identified in transcript, so identification is from Advanced Biofuels USA

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BC: And in my role at high Leon, I have always advocated for a technology agnostic solution. Let's do what we need to do as long as it's merit and we're able to get that emission reduction. Who cares? We though when it comes to some of these programs make it very difficult to be able to get any dollars because even though on the surface, it reads as it's technology agnostic, the criteria to actually get there only allows renewable. And so when I say renewable, really only wind, really only solar. So when we have solutions like renewable propane that could also come into play, some of the incentives will not even apply to us. So I think as I think about how the federal government can continue to help foster this next view of energy, it really needs to be merit based instead of just pushing us towards certain technologies that will get the headlines but might not be able to drive us towards really making a difference quickly.

Moderator: And how do you deal with what I imagine is the disconnect then at the federal level and the state level because I imagine this is now hindering the progress for sure.

BC: And to me, it's a lot of conversations and I think we, we have kind of gravitated towards renewables for the right reason when it's available. It is an amazing source. But where I'm from in Michigan in the winters, using solar panels aren't exactly going to be beneficial. So as high leon, we spent a lot of time in DC, we spend a lot of time at state legislatures to really talk about what it really means to have a merit based system. And I think that's really the best way and the more and more people that can get around that we can make a difference a lot faster.

Moderator: Yeah, please,

JH: you know, actually this has been a problem for us as well. So we take waste carbon emissions like from a steel mill and recycle them to make ethanol. But in the United States, the renewable fuel standard only accepts ethanol that's made from sugar or corn. And so we are actually at a competitive disadvantage because nobody imagined our pathway could be something to reduce carbon emissions. And I think you see this over and over again. So I just want to reiterate that technology neutral standards like the low carbon fuel standard, for example, are absolutely critical to the success of new technologies.

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TP: Three years ago, I would talk about renewable propane, but I was really talking about hydro treating fats, oils and greases. The same way we make renewable diesel or sustainable aviation fuel today. That's actually one technology. But, but today actually the more exciting technology is direct conversion of co two something that four or five years ago, it was just an idea in the lab and now we see department of Energy and others investing in this technology. Now still we're moving from an idea to a pilot to a bench and but, but we're moving and we see doe invest actually just now millions of dollars in that technology. So it gives me the confidence, it should give users the confidence. And I think what's exciting to me is it gives smart people inside doe and labs across the country and really around the world, the belief that for once we have ample feedstock co two would be one of those that we can convert into a liquid fuel that now we can transport store and use, not just in America, not just in North America, but in all around the world as we seek an alternative to a lower carbon solution. It's, it's fascinating for me even on the inside, every day doing it to see the pace of innovation is miraculous.

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Moderator: I'm going to ask you all this question, but Jennifer, I will start with you. Transportation, we know is a major contributor right to greenhouse gas emissions. So what are the most promising strategies and technologies for decarbonization in this sector?

JH: Well, I think Tucker started by talking about direct conversion of CO two, right, people call that power to X because converting CO two requires some type of power. Sometimes the power comes as electrons, sometimes it comes as hydrogen made from electrons. But I do believe that as we decarbonize the grid and put more electrons cheap electrons in that grid, we are going to be able to convert co two economically to make sustainable aviation fuel, to make diesel, to make other products, even propane. Um So I think, I think one of the most promising things to think about is co two as a feedstock. But I also want to say that to me, what we need to also be thinking about is how we can use every type of carbon that's already above ground to make what we need. And from that, I would say not just co two but municipal solid waste, how much carbon is locked in, in trash? We have the ability to convert municipal solid waste. And when we first announced our project with one of our partners in Japan, they actually said they used these words, they said the urban oil field, that's how much carbon is locked in these things. And I really love that and, and so I think that's important. And then the last thing I'll comment Rocky and I know I'm going on.

Moderator: No, no, please.

JH: But I do want us to think not just above carbon to make like sustainable aviation fuel, but a lot of our thinking on electrons, fuels, but not on materials. 30% of the barrel goes to the production of the things we use every day, our clothing, OK, our shoes, our chairs, etc. And so I really think if we're going to really decarbonize or defossilize, we need routes to use that waste carbon that's above ground to make products. And if I may, I will show you this.

Moderator: Oh, I was going to ask you, I didn't ask you in the line, but you were holding an orange sweater and I was like, she's definitely not cold. What have we got here? No.

JH: So this is actually Crag hopper's jacket and the polyester in this jacket was made from recycled carbon emissions at a steel mill. So a steel mill in China was going to emit carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide, in particular emissions, we captured it converted to ethanol and then ethanol can be converted to the monomer. And the monomer can go to polyester and crag hoppers. If you go to REI they've got jackets made from recycled carbon emissions from a steel mill. So when people tell you carbon capture and reuse that you, it's not silent, it's real. And the only way we're going to keep carbon in the ground is if we find different ways from which to make the things we use in our daily lives.

Moderator: Tucker, I want to ask you the same question about, about transportation. Sort of, we know it's the major, we know it's a major sort of contributor in greenhouse gas emissions. What do you think are promising strategies and technologies for? Well,

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BC: But policy, whether it's federal level, which is just starting to scratch the surface or you take a state like California, it's really pushing towards evs and evs in heavy truck. Just don't have a place today because you can't get charging infrastructure. That driver doesn't know if he gets stuck in traffic if he's going to make it to that next charging location. So exactly what Tucker said, it's a hybridized solution that is going to make the most sense in heavy truck. And I think that's also the hardest part of the market to decarbonize. So we have to think a little bit more broadly than just ev because we're not there yet.

JH: And I just want to add one small little thing about the importance of hydrocarbons in heavy duty transportation. Let's not forget that hydrocarbons have very high energy density. So if you want to go far, you know, want to fly from Orlando to Gatwick on that airplane, the energy density of the fuel matters. So the question again is what feedstock, can I make those hydrocarbons from? Can I make them from co two? Can I make them from other resources?

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Moderator: Jennifer.

JH: Just, just the last comment to add and I think Tucker talked about this and I think you did as well. We don't need to walk the same exact path we've already walked. And by that, I don't mean just by resources we use but also by products we put in our fleets. Let's talk about sustainable aviation fuel. Everybody talks about sustainable aviation fuel as a way to reduce carbon emissions. True. But actually these are all isomers, paraffin, they are not aromatics and rings. Ok. What does that mean? That means that particular emissions also go down and if particular emissions go down, contrails go down. Ok. So one thing about the path we've walked to date is that fuels are a mishmash of molecules made in a refinery from petroleum, which is a mishmash of molecules, right? And so one of the things we have the ability to do now is to change that by using different feed stocks like co two or other approaches, we are able to make single fuels like propane, like renewable diesel or like sustainable aviation fuel which are much more homogeneous, serve a purpose without all the excess pollution and toxicity.

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Moderator: You know, we talked a lot yesterday about A I and I'm interested in what y'all are thinking sort of A I is evolving so quickly. We all know that we talk about it all the time. How do you see this technology or do you see this technology accelerating decarbonization efforts? I'm curious on your thoughts, Bobby, I'll start with you.

BC: Sure. So I think in the near term, it's going backwards and I'll just give one example of a major data center solution provider, Google. If you read their sustainability report, they do so much trying to get clean energy. It is all over there. But they're also very honest about what their scope two emissions are. So these are emissions based on services they would purchase so electricity that they're buying to run their data centers emissions from those scope two went up 37% year over year, 37% and all of that is data centers. So in the near term A I is going to really put some pressure, not only on the grid, but also going to push the limits when it comes to emissions. And we're probably at just the beginning of that right now.

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BC: And now you see last week Microsoft teaming up with Constellation Energy reopened a nuke that no one thought five years ago would dare. You see, I think it's going to move us to where we believe we would go two years ago. And that's a real different conversation around decentralized power micro grids, controlling your own power, not just for cost but for reliability and having adequate volume. I think we have, we have spent untold hours thinking about hey, how A I will affect the natural gas or the propane industry and it will allow us to do things differently, routing to customers producing energy. But I think probably is spot on the next five years. What it's going to do is drive not only energy way up but water use way up. We don't talk about it much, but that's another piece of the element of the environmental conversation. But what it's going to also do is change the complete conversation around Powergen.

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JH: I just wanted to talk about how we use A I because it affected but it talks about it and why it's enabling. So we have bacteria that eat gas and make ethanol, but I can genetically modify that bacteria to make other chemicals on purpose at sight that I want. So to reprogram that bacteria, I need to reprogram the enzymes, the proteins, all its genetic make up. And the only way I can do that without doing 10 billion experiments is to use A I and model and predict. And once I can predict what genetic material to put in there, I can make that bacteria do anything. So if you imagine a future with above ground carbon distributed production, not in a centralized refinery, what you need is selectivity to the chemical or the material you want to get that. I believe you need biology to make biology do what you want to do. You need a I. So it's a very different A I than C A GPT, but it's, it is nonetheless going to be essential to change how we make things in the future. READ MORE

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waste-to-fuel trucks steel Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS and RFS2) Renewable Diesel/Green Diesel/HVO/Paraffinic Diesel Regulations-State Regulations-Federal regulations Propane/Biopropane/Renewable Propane particulates MSW (Municipal Solid Waste) LCFS (Low Carbon Fuel Standard) Jetfuel (Sustainable Aviation Fuel (SAF)) industrial waste gases Heavy Duty Truck Rule government investment genetically modified organism (GMO) FOG (Fats/Oils/Grease) flue gas Feedstocks electric grid Electric Car/Electric Vehicle (EV) drop-in biofuels/hydrocarbons defossilization conversion technology Carbon Intensity (CI)/Carbon Footprint Carbon Dioxide (CO2) carbon capture and utilization (CCU) BioRefineries/Renewable Fuel Production BioChemicals/Renewable Chemicals bacteria Aviation Fuel/Sustainable Aviation Fuel (SAF) environmental policy Transportation Fuels Policy energy policy Department of Energy (DOE) Sustainability

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